I love framework computers, but unless you’re working with LLMs and can leverage the high VRAM, you’re better off building your own desktop if you’re comfortable. The desktop represents a very specific niche, and the repairability of a traditional ITX desktop handedly beats that of the framework desktop.

I may as well call you fixating on the promotional pricing nit a redirection from you being unable to admit you were wrong about what the average cost of cellular and Internet in the US is.

It was an edit, so understandable that you missed it, but I did add to my last comment that fwiw I did agree with you that we should also look at averages.

If we’re being crystal clear, you also called it a promotion, their website called it a promotion and made it explicit that they were discounting the Internet plan and that the introductory rate expired.

Let’s play a game. Can you tell me what their non-promotional rate for internet is? If it’s within the $40-$50 range I provided, you’ll owe me a dollar?

So here are my thoughts on averages - the article you linked arrived at its number by looking at the average price of plans offered. IMO that doesn’t capture “affordability”, because it doesn’t make sense that adding Kanye Wests new ISP offering a 5gbps gold-plated modem equipment rental tier for $2k/month should impact “affordability”. What would really be helpful is the the average, most affordable internet plans offered around the nation. I couldn’t find that, though as a close second I did find surveys suggesting that the average American pays $89(again, there’s a difference between average plan offered and average amount paid), which blows my mind.

That got me thinking, what does the average American pay for cell phone service? Most reporting I found covers what the average bill is, which ignores number of lines - a crucial statistic. However, this article refers to a JD power report saying the average cell bill is $144. Hard to contextualize this without knowing how many lines that sum represents.

Earlier, you asked if I think the vast majority of Americans are picking more expensive choices for no reason. I actually do - and I have two pieces of evidence that led me to that conclusion.

1. The average price paid for internet ($89, according to the study I linked) is higher than the average cost of internet plans offered ($60s-70, I think, based on the article you linked). This suggests that the average American is heavy on consumption and makes the choice to go with the more expensive plans even though cheaper plans are offered.
2. This second point is, to me, the most telling data point. In the cell phone service article, we were unsure about how many lines the average of $144 represented. However in the same breath. JD power also said that by switching to an MVNO, the average bill was halved - going down to $77, presumably a study done under the same conditions as their previous, name-brand carrier study. Here we have clear insight. The name-brand carriers and MVNOs have exactly the same availability - MVNOs literally run on the same networks. In theory there’s some issues like you might get deprioritized if there’s a lot of network traffic, but that rarely happens, and I’m sure most Americans couldn’t even tell you what deprioritized means. I’m going to suggest that MVNOs offer basically equivalent service to the brand name carriers. If they do, then why are Americans paying double for the brand-name carriers? I’d suggest it generally falls down to incumbent advantage. People not doing their homework on what carrier to use, or not wanting to make the switch due to potential hassle.

So yeah, I think people do pay more than they could, for no reason. So while the average costs might be high, that is at least partially due to overconsumption or market inefficiencies, and not necessarily due to lack of affordability. This is why when answering someone asking about affordability, it’s good to share cheap, nationwide plans in addition to the average costs for said items.

I’m a big fan of a budgeting software called “budget with buckets”.

It’s the same envelope/bucket budgeting method as YNAB, except it only runs on your machine so you have greater privacy. It comes with an unlimited, untimed free trial, since it often can take months to decide if a budgeting software works for you. I used it for maybe a year without paying. If you do pay, it’s a one-time payment.

It supports account syncing for a pittance - I think it was $15/year.

Until I hear anything different from you, I’m just going to assume that comment already made the point you’re trying to make.

Given how much you’ve brought to the table for this conversation that seems to be a generous assumption. So far you have the charm of a power tripping cop, and the great thing about the internet is I don’t need to engage with that.

Have a good day!

I’m getting hung up on it because you opened with copy/pasting all of the terms and conditions, and vaguely hand waivey implied that meant I was relying on a promotional rate to make my point. I stated it wasn’t a promotional rate multiple times, but nothing seemed to stick. Now that I hopefully made it crystal clear, you’re just redirecting.

To be frank, I have better things to do than to get into an internet argument with someone who refuses to acknowledge if they were wrong. Behavior like that, coupled with petty things like down voting all replies suggests someone doesn’t actually want to have a conversation, but instead just wants to megaphone their opinions. Which category do you want to be in? Because if it’s the latter, once again, it’s not worth my time. If it’s the former, we can talk about the nuances between average prices of offered plans vs average prices paid by consumers.

EDIT: fwiw, I do agree with you on averages.

I’m going to guess that this comment beat you to the punch?

So yeah, if you’re being scheduled for irregular shifts it’s not going to work out. Maybe something like Uber could help earn some extra income? But car wear and tear could cancel that out, unsure.

Out of curiosity, what does Verizon get you that visible doesn’t? Visible plans are unlimited with mobile hotspot, which ticks a lot of boxes for basic service.

Yeah that’s fair. When I was working multiple jobs I was lucky enough that none of them demanded full time availability.

Damn, lack of choice sucks. Have you looked into visible wireless? They’re a Verizon mvno, so they’ll have coverage wherever Verizon does. Plans are in the $20-$30 range.

Don’t feel great dropping personal info online just to prove a point. I’ve had 3 concurrent part time jobs in the past, but one was tapering one off, so it was only 3 jobs for a few months, rest was 2 jobs. I was lucky that I had a regular schedule for all of them so I could make it work.

I mean, yeah it sucked, but so does only being broke and I wanted out of it.

I’m laying out what I think are reasonable options that folks would want. Unlimited cell phone data for $30 paired with a steady, low latency cable line for $50 seems to be a combination that most folks could use.

It’s definitely not optimized for saving money. You could save a lot of money if you wanted to focus on that. Helium mobile has a free 3gb/month plan, no credit card needed. For home Internet you’d be at the mercy of your local ISPs, but I’m sure there are more affordable plans that could be picked.

To add onto this, there are MVNOs for basically every carrier.

Visible uses verizon, and their cheapest plan is $25/month, taxes and fees included. There’s currently a promo that brings it down to $19/month for 26 months.

Mint and metro uses tmobile. Metro offers unlimited at $25.

Cricket uses at&t, they also have unlimited phone plans in the $25-35 range.

You said $115 is on the pricier side and linked to promotional offers to show that a cheaper option exists in some contexts.

I’ve said this three times now. $40 for Internet was not a promotional rate.

Please read the terms and conditions you yourself shared. You’ll notice they mention internet AND a voice line.

So yes, $40 for both is a promotional rate.

But $40/month for the Internet is their standard rate. You can confirm this by scrolling down to their to table for renewal prices. 3 month renewal is $50/month, 6 month is $45/month, and 1 year is $40/month. If you want things to be crystal clear, keep scrolling to the broadband facts section. You’ll see that $40/month for the 3 month stint is an introductory price. But $45 for 6 month and $40 for the 1 year plan very explicitly states it’s not an introductory price.

I don’t think we can proceed until we agree on this.

Did you know that if your Internet bill is $60, and your phone bill is $55, that you now have monthly costs for phone and Internet of … $115?

I linked 3 separate MVNOs across multiple carriers with nationwide coverage that have unlimited plans at $30.

If you’re paying a $55 phone bill it’s your choice to do so, there are far more affordable options. We’re not scrimping here either, these are unlimited plans. If you did want to save, you can get even cheaper capped plans.

It’s directly applicable when you say cheaper options are available and then link to a promotional offer where the pricing expires.

Just to make sure we’re on the same page.

I said you can get Internet for $40-$50.

I linked a provider which provides a non-promotional rate of $40/month for Internet.

As a promotion, they’re throwing in a cellular line for free. This expires.

Does this somehow invalidate my claim of you can get Internet for $40-$50?

Government subsidized free Internet is currently not a thing in the US because the government is actively hostile to most of the citizenry. We still have the program to get up to $9.25 off if you make less than $25k a year though.

Yes. I never said it was free, just that it was subsidized.

Please read the rest of the comment I previously made where I linked to some actual averages for cost, because again: a lower cost existing isn’t the same as the average cost being low.

Sure - the average, non-promotional rate of $60 is still cheaper than what this post implies.

If we’re being real, in many markets (hello Xfinity/comcast) you’re oftentimes expected to be on a promotional rate more often than not. When I was living by myself, I could call Xfinity and ask for a promotional rate, and be told that I’d be eligible in x months, usually 2-4. If you live with others, you can swap who the Internet is under each year to always be getting a promotional rate.

In a country with a reputation of overconsumption, I think when someone asks with incredulity about the price of something, it’s valid to include the floor in addition to average/median/etc.

When discussing in the context of someone making little money, the floor is probably more relevant. Someone who’s barely making ends meet is not going to worry about splurging for the no data caps (fuck Xfinity) package for the streaming services he does not have.

My impression from the rest of the thread is that his current employer is the one that wants to avoid Obamacare.

So if he just finds a second job with another employer, he can at least be earning more money, instead of being capped at 25 hours at his current one. And since he already is able to sustain himself on the first job, the 15 hours of working can significantly boost his savings from ~$100/month to 4 weeks *15 hours per week * 7.25 (fed min wage) ~$500/month. Doesn’t solve all problems, but just finding a full 40 hours of work quintuples how much financial slack they have, which is very significant.

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So the $40/month at mint isn’t a promotional rate, and the $50/month price at Xfinity says it’s good for 5 years.

I mean you can find alternatives that do exactly what you’re talking about, but I feel the examples I provided are valid, sustainable prices for Internet.

My “gotcha” was the bit I said right after the fine print: not as cheap as advertised in the long run

It’s…it’s a promotion. I didn’t even mention it in my post, where I said internet can typically be had for $40-$50.

After the promotion, the Internet still stays the same price, it’s the free voice line that you don’t get.

I don’t think it’s much of a gotcha worth flourishing the terms and conditions over, but…sure, you’ve pointed out that additional discounts that were never factored into my initial comment expire, so the baseline offering goes back to what I mentioned in my post. $40-$50. This is also entirely avoiding the discussion of the government subsidized internet if you’re on SNAP, etc.

Do you know if they get a second part time job and still qualify for Obamacare? If they can subsist on 25 hours a week, then adding another 15 would really help with savings.

Oh wow, what companies do you use?